SPEAKER_03 0:00

I wanted to go see the I'd never been to Philly before, so I wanted to go see the steps and you know the the Rocky Steps.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

What Rocky Steps? I'm not familiar with Philly.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Have you seen the movie Rocky?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Oh, oh, okay. I thought you meant like these steps that are famous because they are Rocky.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

No, they're not. They're in Rocky. Yeah. So I I wanted to get like a I wanted to run.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I got you.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

But there were so many So the steps were like um painted uh like FIFA colors or something. Oh, okay. Uh and then there was like a whole bunch of like people around there lining up to take a picture with a Rocky statue.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Oh, they have a Rocky statue?

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Oh, that's wild.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Yeah, right on the spot where he kind of does that. They've got a statue of him doing that.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

No way! Yeah. Uh that's a little too on the nose, y'all. It is. I met my next guest at a film festival, which if you've been listening to this show for any amount of time, you know is basically my second home at this point. And you know how festivals go. You're sleep deprived, overstimulated, everyone's pitching something, and then every once in a while you meet someone who just gets it. Someone who's been doing the work quietly across multiple continents, okay, for over 15 years and has receipts to prove it. Welcome back to E2, the show where you leave a little happier and with a little more hope than when you came in. I'm Edith, your host, and if there are two things I cannot resist, it's a good story and a good dim sum menu. And today we've got both. My guest today, boy, does he know a thing or two about reinvention. Born in Mumbai, trained in London, pivoted through the pandemic, packed his bags for Chicago, and is now somehow also about to direct his first stage production at the second city. He was a producer on the Agent Academy Award-winning series, Fox. Fox Fox directed the acclaimed documentary, Uniting Through Yoga. And when he's not exploring the human psyche through his stories, he's apparently exploring a dim sum menu with the same intensity, which frankly makes me a little hungry. Please welcome to having me. Yeah, it's it's a pleasure. Um work across continents. Can you like if you were to give like a two-minute elevator pitch of your life and how you've gotten here, what what would you say?

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Uh I'll put myself to the ringer, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I mean, like, how did you transition?

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Well, it it interestingly, I my first foray into the arts was not with the intention to do film. Uh I was very interested in video games and like gaming uh when I was uh I mean I've always been a film enthusiast. Um Star Wars was my first you know, like real love for film. Uh but uh I was very intrigued by visual effects and then animation uh and gaming. So um my I did an undergrad in the UK in animation. Um and um that essentially kind of opened me up to the world of storytelling. Uh and I've always been interested in writing ever since I was a child. Like I would do like essays in school or like you know, write little like short stories. Um so that sort of came back to me. Um I picked up a camera for the first time in during my undergrad, and I just essentially just decided I'm gonna be a director. I love that. Yeah, I mean halfway through my animation program, I realized I enjoy it, but I am probably better at like directing live action. So that I kind of pivoted that way. That was my first pivot. Um so I started making short films when I was in film school. In sorry, in animation school, I made made a few animated films, um, a couple of live action, a couple of mixed media. Uh, and then when I graduated, um my first gig on um film set out it was initially as a production assistant and and then bumped up to an extra. So I was so my my first IMDb credit was as an actor.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And then how did that bring you to Chicago?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Um well, I mean Chicago happened much later because I uh because that was in 2007, 2008. Um I uh subsequently went to the London Film School to do a master's in screenwriting. Oh and then I moved back to India after my visa expired, and um basically the the industry was not really doing all that great at the time, and I figured I might as well just go back to India and start a company and try to make make a mark there. Um my intention was al always to eventually move to the US Um because I wanted to make move move movies here, uh, but I figured I'd sort of take take it take the time build up my portfolio. Uh and India is familiar to me and Mumbai is familiar to me, so I I want to kind of you know use that to its to the best to its fullest and try to get some work under my belt before I actually make the move. Um one thing led to another, and suddenly like 10, 12 years have passed by. Wow. Yeah. I started a production company, I used to I did a I did a bunch of short films, uh started doing commercials, I opened up and I opened up another production company with a couple of friends just to do commercials because I kind of at at some point I realized I'm not gonna make money with short films. You know, I got it gotta get the bread and butter, right? So commercials is where it was at and corporate videos and all of that. Eventually uh I kind of like transitioned into doing commercials more than narrative. Yeah, and uh let me tell you, like five years, I did I did that for five years. Just like commercials, and uh I can tell you honestly, it sucked the soul out of me.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

I laugh because it's true. And you're not the first person to talk about that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

I do commercials and um I love it because I'm like the on the actor side, um, but I do hear the notes that clients have about one strand of hair, about one shade of color, about one, and so it's just that weird back and forth and back and forth, even in like production. So I can't even imagine in post-production.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Oh, for sure. I mean, uh production was like uh the harder harder harder than post-production in a lot of ways because the client would be on set and get involved more than they should. I had I had one shoot for um a um commercial commercial where the client decided she wants to take over the costume department. Oh yeah, so we had we had we had a fight and battle there, but uh we got it done eventually and it turned out turned out good, but then you always have these moments where clients will be like, I know better, and just try to like bulldoze their way through through the shoot.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, I I was in one where there's like a joke at the end, right? Like so it pans to something absurd in a joke that you know the 30 seconds kind of leads to. And the client was like, No, we don't we don't need that joke. The director's like that's the whole point of this. Like, we can't just cut the joke at the end, and so it was a couple of hours of them discussing and us sitting like quietly like waiting for a decision to be made. So I I I feel you a deeply, yeah, deeply feel you on that. Okay, so five years commercials then Chicago.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Uh no, so then I got I got uh what I'm kind of terming as a bit of a break for me is when I got hired to do a documentary feature. Uh so a friend of mine uh who's the producer of the feature, he and his dad were students of this uh renowned yoga teacher called BKS Iingar, uh who's he's kind of spread his yoga teachings pretty much all across the world. Uh and there are branches of his teas, like branches of schools teaching his style of yoga everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

So And you got 500 strangers around the world to send over footage, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:01

I mean, yeah, pretty much. It was um we we structured it in a way where um most of the interviews were crowdsourced, you know, they would film themselves and send it to me. Uh and we of course had like our rules to film horizontally, you know, film with good light and good sound and all that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Did you get any wacky ones? Like was were anybody new, like people nude or like funny.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Oh, thankfully not, no. Um but no. The only thing that annoyed me was like half of them showed shot it vertically.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Oh, gotcha. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

But it was it was a very good experience because I uh I'd uh I had never done documentary before, uh, and I'd never done a project where I didn't have a script. You know, I kind of we went into this like completely blank, got the footage, and then I na I built the narrative and built the structure in the edit.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah. So that was fun for you.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Uh it was very tedious, but it was very uh it was a very um enlightening experience because I mean I learned a lot firstly about this man uh who was quite a phenomenal person. Uh but also the the the the act of kind of like forming a narrative after the fact, uh that was a really good challenge for me. And uh I'm very happy with the end product. We ended up ended up uh get being distributed by um an online streamer called Gaia, who was uh who does a lot of like spiritual content and yoga and that sort of thing. Uh and then through them we got an Amazon uh distribution as well. So we were streaming on Amazon for about four years.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

And is that around the same time as Bach?

SPEAKER_03 10:45

That was literally just before Bach. So I wrapped up this and I immediately got into bug. Uh so a couple of friends of mine, they are the writer, directors, showrunners of this show. Um it was um it was basically came about when um a streaming platform called a network called Hook, based in Singapore, they had uh they had a competition where they um uh for people uh for filmmakers around Southeast Asia to submit pilot scripts. So uh um my friends uh pilot script got picked up, they filmed the pilot, and they they basically won the competition to get funded for the whole season. So that's when they brought me in. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So I I came in literally right after I finished my documentary, jumped right into pre-production, and that was about a six months overall uh from pre-production to delivery.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

And so what year is that?

SPEAKER_03 11:43

That was in 2019.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Okay, so then pandemic hit, and then that's when you come to Chicago.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Yeah, so basically I had these two projects that that really I would consider my big break in the industry. Uh, and I did not get a chance to build on it because of the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

So the pandemic came about, we were in Mumbai was kind of India in general in the whole on a whole was locked down for a good part of a year and a half. So no shoots happening. Um, what I decided to do is uh use my skills as an editor, and uh up until that point, I was I I always edited my own films, but I never worked as an editor for hire. That's that's where I pivoted then again the second time. Uh so I started taking on clients, I did a lot of commercials, um, a couple of short films, um, and basically over the course of about two years during the pandemic, I kind of built a client base as an editor. Um and at that point I was like, I I I still want to go to the US, you know. I I want to go there and make films there. And I've at this point discovered that doing post-production or working as an editor is very is very much more stable as an income owner than being a director. So I I figured I'll kill two birds with one stone. I applied to DePaul University in Chicago for an editing program. And I was like, I'm I'll go, I'll go back to film school, you know. Um let's give it a shot. Let's move to the US, go back to film school, learn post-production the right way, and you know, make that transition. It was it was nerve-wracking because uh at that point I was 39 years old going back to film school, uh, spending a lot of money for that. Um you have great skin.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Whatever I like, sorry, I'm like, you wait, what you were that old? I'm like, you've got great skin.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Chicago's past kept secret. It's not deep dish. It's Joel MySonette Photography. He's legitimately the best, and it's about time everybody knew. Actors, execs, LinkedIn Lurkers, book at mycenerphotography.com. And thank me later. So how are you finding you know uh art right now and balancing art and like finances or like you know, like the things that pay the bills versus the things that your heart sings?

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Great, because I I cause I feel like I I'm now in a position where um I can do my art, but I can also do art that pays me.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Good. That's the goal, man.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, I I wouldn't say I'm there yet in terms of like do making features, but I'm kind of I feel like I'm I'm on the way. You know, I I'm I'm I have this uh play that's coming up. I've never done stage before. Um it it is it is um I I I'm not doing it for the money, but I am getting paid for it, you know. So it's it's one of the things where uh it's it's a that's a bonus, but at the same time it's something I'm I get to explore my craft as a director in a different medium. Um I've all I've always done film, I've always done like like the technical side of storytelling, but theater is an entirely different animal, and that's something I'm I'm nervous about, but I'm also super excited to um Hey, you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah. I'm biased because I I started in theater, and I think learning how to even act, but but to direct from from theater to film is harder, in my big fat opinion, because there are like there's actual lighting equipment and a camera and a gaffer and a sound person versus I think it'll be easier to do film to theater because it's just one person on a stage. And sure you have you know, there's lighting and you gotta, you know, do a gel or like a phoenix and you know f figure out when you go like the curtains, but it's not technically speaking, is not as tough. So I'm thinking you're gonna be incredible. Um, and that's condemned to a life, and it's gonna premiere at Second City and then in New York uh for the Solo Fest. That's really exciting.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Yeah, I mean we got we got three shows at Second City in August, uh, and then the one show in New York in October. Um we we just had our first uh blogging rehearsal yesterday, and we're gonna be spending the next like month or so and just you know rehearsing and getting it right.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Um love rehearsal.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Yeah, you you do. You don't?

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Do you?

SPEAKER_03 16:35

I I feel it's necessary.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Oh man, I love rehearsal. It's so fun. I wish film would do it for weeks on end.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Uh I I did it for my short film. Uh I uh because that's one of the things I uh which which with shorts, I think it's really important because you have such uh so few days to work to uh for production. I mean, it just helps because like I I did I did only one day of rehearsals for my short film, uh Clotes in Our Backs, which I shot last year. Um we had a four-day shoot and I only got a day to do rehearsals before, but it was so helpful because I felt like uh blocking wise and chemistry-wise, I it was it really important to get the actors on that page. Um and once we got into the shoot that those having that rehearsal done really helped a lot in making the shoot faster.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah, I think you're in the minority of directors who do that. I think more and more directors should, because it's it it just makes everything easier when when actors don't have to meet each other the day they're supposed to have, you know, a 40-year-old relationship build to this one moment. Or something, you know, because sometimes it's very heated, sometimes there's a lot of comedy involved. Like you have to have that chemistry before for sure.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Absolutely. The the I feel like for me personally, the only thing about rehearsals that is a downside is that you don't always get to discover uh like those moments that you get on set, you know. So some sometimes you're gonna take an actor, well just find a moment, and and that sometimes that comes about when you've never done it before. For me personally, um I I want the rehearsals more for physical blocking, you know? Uh for the actors to understand the space, and then of course the chemistry to like make sure they're the they're kind of gelling well together. Um but when it comes to the actual performances, I I want to discover more on set in with the camera on.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Uh this is a question that I've always wanted to ask guests, but it's usually towards the end, and then like you know, we we get into like the the weird and the paranormal stuff, but I've always wanted to ask this, and I think you're the person to do it. What is one piece of advice you would tell your younger self? Is there anything that if you could go back to Little Vishal?

SPEAKER_03 19:12

Yeah, do do not start a company right out of film school.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Practical advice definitely.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Um that's definitely very important. Write every day. But write every day because that's because it's like it's like a it's like going to the gym, it's like a muscle that you're training, you know. That that creative part of your brain. Um you I've gone like if I go a week without writing, uh, it starts getting rusty. I feel like it doesn't matter what it is. Um I I I have a dream diary. Like I I'll I'll if I have I have some bizarre dreams, so I'll I'll write them down. Um and uh if it's not that uh there are like other writing exercises, just I mean just anything, you know, like just write your thoughts down. Um but I feel just that action of writing, putting pen to paper, um, and putting your thoughts on there, it's it's so uh I want to say freeing, but also it it's it's practice. And I think as as a writer, you just need that.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, well, I would like to practice hot cakes. They're like hot takes, but they stack up. We're gonna put 60 seconds on the clock. You ready?

SPEAKER_03 20:29

Oh yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Mumbai, London, or Chicago. Which city actually feeds your soul?

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Chicago.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

What's a cuisine you've never tried that you're embarrassed about? Um have you tried them all?

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Try them all.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Star Wars or everything else?

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Star Wars.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

What's the last thing you googled at 2 a.m.?

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Bus bus ride from Chicago to South Haven, because my my buddy Charles is getting married in Chicago in Michigan this weekend.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Uh what's your song at karaoke?

SPEAKER_03 21:05

It's usually anything by Johnny Cash or Elvis.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Best meal you've ever had.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Oh, that's a hard one. Uh I'm gonna say um a f a pho in Vietnam in like a street side shack.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Dim sum order that tells me everything about you. Go.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Okay. Um I can't I can't remember the ex actual names, but uh definitely shoe mai and there's um uh bean curd roll with chicken that that I really like. I get it, I get it at 88 Marketplace in Chinatown.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Bollywood or Hollywood? You can only pick one.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Hollywood.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

What's your best dance move?

SPEAKER_03 21:44

I can't dance. I mean uh um I I I I I can probably waltz if I'm if I have to. That's dancing. Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

I did dancing. I had to learn ballroom dancing in middle school and And uh we went to a competition, and um I was waltzing with my buddy uh Marcos, and um in the middle of the competition, his shoe just flies through the dance floor. So we got last. Uh very funny. Uh so that's that's that's the end of my waltzing career. Um but I want to get back into uh the weird dreams you're having. Is that as paranormal as you get, as as woo-woo as you get?

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Oh, for sure. I mean, uh do you want me to tell you one?

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Uh well, one of the dreams I had, uh I was being chased by a uh triceratops.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, what what time period were you in?

SPEAKER_03 22:53

I have no idea, but I was in a place that reminded me of like Antarctica, like on a glacier in Antarctica or something. And being chased by a triceratops that somehow it kind of turned into the skeleton of a triceratops. So I was being chased by a fossil, essentially. Um and running towards the edge of a cliff. And I'm sure there's some kind of like psychosis or like some kind of explanation as to what this means. But um I got to an edge the edge of a cliff, turned around, and it's coming barreling down at me, and I jump out of the way at the last minute, and it tumbles over the cliff, and I woke up. So I have a lot of action-related dreams for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

I like that. Did you Google it and see like what it could have been?

SPEAKER_03 23:40

I did not. I probably should. I mean, uh uh, but I've written it down, so it's it's it's all there.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Could I Google it right now? Can I actually?

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Okay. Uh the uh dream. We're gonna we might cut all of this, don't worry.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

I I I feel like the getting chased part is probably the the crux of it. Like there's there's something about running away or being chased by something uh in your dreams that it attributes to some, I guess, something that's going on. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Well, and and I will share mine in a sec. Uh uh let's see what let's see what Google has to say. Um being chased by a dinosaur represents anxiety or old fears catching up with you. The triceratops turning into a fossil means you have successfully neutralized this threat. When it falls off the cliff, it shows that your past burdens or outdated beliefs have permanently vanished.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

You just typed into Google and gave you like like a whole analysis for it?

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Okay. Well, I should do that more often then.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, go through your dream journal and just uh just Google stuff. I recently had a dream um that I was just out and about. I'm always going to the dentist in my dream. Um and I was out and about and I realized that there was like a fishing line with you know what those fishing weights? I don't know what they're actually called, but I you know, those fishing weights that just bring the line down to the ground. I realized I had a fishing line and weight sewn to my uvula in my mouth, and the weight was down my throat. And I realized it was there, and so I like grabbed it out of my mouth and cut the line, and then my tongue wouldn't work.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

And then I'm just like and I was like, I'll I don't know whether how and uh and then I think I woke up um and I typed into Google and it was like you have anxiety. So I feel like don't I don't take everything that it says because I think it just gives you just generic stuff.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

Um everything bowels on to anxiety. Everyone's anxious about something.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

No one would say no, it's not anxiety. Uh and so it's at the same thing like you cut it, you released it, blah blah blah. Um, but yeah, but I I love a good dream journal. I might have to start one as well. Do you have another is do you believe in ghosts, aliens, any other weird stuff?

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Well, ail I mean aliens to me is like uh it's not a question of whether you believe they're not like God, you know, you don't have to believe in them. They're just I just think of it from the point of view of like um the universe is so vast, there are billions and billions of star systems and planets. Uh and it's just inconceivable to me that we are we would be the only sentient species in in all of in this vast universe, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Well you do like Star Wars.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Yeah, yeah. I don't I I don't think the aliens out there would be like the Star Wars aliens, but you know, sure.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

But like if they were, who would you like to be visited by? Oh i i if you could if you could say like oh okay, they're real and I would like and they and they do resemble Star Wars, what um what character would come to you? Okay, okay, yeah, yeah. Baby Yoda? I would I would I would like baby Yoda.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

Well, technically that's not Yoda, that's Grogu.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

But okay, well, and that that's the end of this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

No, I I I want the master. I w I want to be taught stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Oh I like it. I like it. You're like, I yeah, that's the extent of my Star Wars knowledge. And I was incorrect. So um that tells you a lot about me.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

Sorry, Jacob will edit that out.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yeah, I'm like, uh please, please cut everything. Um no, I'm a Doctor Who fan. Like that, that's my nerdy like way into like the the weird and the fun.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Doctor Who's cool. I I I I haven't watched all of Doctor Who, but I what I've seen I liked. Uh I think mostly it was like the Matt Smith, the Matt Smith one.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Oh, oh, you need to watch the um um David Tennant. That's my favorite doctor. Oh yeah. I love it. I love a David Tennant. He's so weird. That it if you if there was a camera in my house that would show how weird I am, it's David Tennant as the doctor. Okay. Yeah. I'm just so co I just have to I have to continue to entertain myself. Otherwise, it's just kind of boring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Yeah. I mean, that's what life is, right? You gotta find ways to occupy your mind.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

And that's why we're artists.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Thank you so much for being on the podcast. This was so funny.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Of course. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

That was so much fun. Crazy about the dreams, and I do think that there is some truth to them, but I just don't think Google's the right place. No, but that was so much fun. Um, I'm so excited for everything he's got going on. Um, if you want to follow him, please go to Instagram at V1SH Films. And if you want to follow his short film, Close on Our Backs, it's on Instagram at CloseOn Our Backs with underscores between all of the words. Uh thank you so much for tuning in. If you liked, giggled, found our dreams a little disturbing, please like, subscribe, and do all that good stuff. I love hearing from y'all. Thank you so much. Bye. Ilse Wilson is an Intrepid entertainment podcast produced and edited by Jacob Kagel, music by Eric Facus, and photography by Joel MySonet. And I am your host, Ilse Sacharia Rivera. The views and opinions expressed on Ilse Will Say are entirely those of the host and guests, and do not reflect the views of any employers, sponsors, or innocent bystanders. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Nothing said here should be taken as professional advice, expert opinion, legal guidance, or a reason to DM a few conspiracy theories. We're here for the laps, y'all. Carry on.